1991 Subaru Loyale AC Relay Location...

[jacksapple]

I have a 1991 Subaru Loyale 4x4 sedan that I'm having a problem with the AC on. My mother owned this car and the AC worked great the whole time she had it. She had a stroke three years ago and had to stop driving. For the last year, the car has set without anyone driving it. My mother decided she wanted to sign the car over to me and my wife started driving it. Only problem is the ac doesn't work now. The compressor will start up and run for about five seconds when the ac control is turned on, but the compressor clutch kicks out after that. If I turn the ac on and off every five seconds, it will blow extremely cold air. With test gauges, the freon is at about 40 lbs on the low side when the compressor is running. I spoke with an AC service person who told me this sounds like the AC relay or also called the compressor clutch relay that is bad. The only problem is, it's not listed in my Chilton manual and I can't find the location of the relay on the internet either. I am hoping that someone in here could shed some light on the location of this relay for me! Any help would be really appreciated.

Thank you,
Jack

[Nacho]

Originally, it is attached to the passenger side strut tower.

[Tom Greenleaf]

Jack - Sorry for troubles with your mother first.

The car: Cars that sit for long periods short of extensive storage details usually will have several assorted issues greatly worse if it was outdoors. A/C likes to work now and then if nothing but to keep oil moving for compressor. Check shaft seal area for leaks behind compressor's clutch. This was R-12 to begin with and consider keeping it R-12 if you plan to keep this vehicle. This may take a hunt now to find the right shop to help and the gas has been out of production for almost 20 years but still out there and should be for a good while.

You didn't ask but other things that can/will be troubles are the battery. If really just sitting I suggest just toss it for good new one as it's capable of causing funky issues throughout the car.

Check or change fluids. Burn out, use up the fuel and consider replacement of fuel filter now.

Go thru all sorts of checks (if keeper) like tires + pressure, spare tire too! Lube locks, hinges and check all rubber items of cooling system, belt(s) brakes and whatevers all over it.

Good luck with it and your mother,

T

[jacksapple]

Originally, it is attached to the passenger side strut tower.

That's where it was! Man, you have no idea how much I appreciate this. I looked all under the hood for this little jewel. On this tower, there are two relays along with a 15 amp fuse. I checked and replaced the fuse and will go to the parts store tomorrow for the relay. Any idea which relay it is? The two relays are side by side on the back side of the strut tower. They look identical, or they do looking at them with a flashlight. I will look closer tomorrow and will replace them both if I have to!

Thanks again,
Jack

[jacksapple]

Jack - Sorry for troubles with your mother first.

The car: Cars that sit for long periods short of extensive storage details usually will have several assorted issues greatly worse if it was outdoors. A/C likes to work now and then if nothing but to keep oil moving for compressor. Check shaft seal area for leaks behind compressor's clutch. This was R-12 to begin with and consider keeping it R-12 if you plan to keep this vehicle. This may take a hunt now to find the right shop to help and the gas has been out of production for almost 20 years but still out there and should be for a good while.

You didn't ask but other things that can/will be troubles are the battery. If really just sitting I suggest just toss it for good new one as it's capable of causing funky issues throughout the car.

Check or change fluids. Burn out, use up the fuel and consider replacement of fuel filter now.

Go thru all sorts of checks (if keeper) like tires + pressure, spare tire too! Lube locks, hinges and check all rubber items of cooling system, belt(s) brakes and whatevers all over it.

Good luck with it and your mother,

T

Thanks for the reply. The first thing I did was replace the battery. I'm going to address the fuel filter too. I have a check engine light on and a little bit of a miss at idle. I changed the distributor cap and rotor trying to get rid of the miss, but I still have it. I even unplugged the battery to reset the check engine light, but it came back on after running the car for about 10 minutes. Unfortunately I live in a small town and I tried to have the engine codes read but the shop I took it to couldn't get their computer to hook up to it. I'm afraid the nearest place to get it done is about 70 miles away, so I guess you can understand why I'm trying to throw parts at it to fix the issue rather than making an appointment, then driving 70 miles one way to find the problem! I did take a look at the belts on the car today while trying to find the A/C relay and I am seeing some dry rot so those will also be changed soon. When I started having trouble with the A/C, my brother evacuated the R12 and replaced it with R134a, so keeping the R12 is a lost cause at this point. I too would rather have had the R12, I've heard there can be issues with putting the R134a in an R12 compressor even if all of the R12 has been evacuated. It's funny you also mentioned the tire pressure and the spare tire. The first day I got the car, along with replacing the battery, I checked the tires over real good and also checked the pressure in the spare. I also mentioned to my wife today that the brakes seem to be a little "squishy". The fluid is fine, so I'm sure it's time for some new brake pads.

You've given me some really good advise here and I appreciate your input!

Thanks again,
Jack

[Tom Greenleaf]

Check engine light readings. Pre 1996 is OBD I and many places can't just hook up to those anymore. Limited info but is telling you something. I don't have the process and till it can be found exactly don't mess with it. Probably counting blinks while two connections are jumped. You convert long blinks, blanks and repeats to #s to know what it's saying with just key to run but engine off usually is the test.

TMK - no codes for OBD I are for A/C items and know that codes are just the area of trouble and don't tell you what to replace like just leave a plug wire off and run it, you'll get a code but doesn't say "a plug wire is off" type thing!

This site is intended for A/C pretty much. Off topic section would be better or PM me for another site for general repair issues,

T

[jacksapple]

Originally, it is attached to the passenger side strut tower.

I did find two relays on the passenger side strut tower, along with a 15 amp fuse. The relays are on the firewall side of the strut tower and they are setting side by side. These little jewels are right at $40 each and I have to drive 70 miles one way to get one. Any idea which one of these is the AC relay? It will either be on the passenger side fender side, or on the engine side. Also, any ideas of what the other relay is to? When the compressor is engaged, I can feel the relay click, but with them setting right next to each other, it's hard to tell which one is actually clicking since I can feel it in both of them. I even tried placing a screwdriver on each of them with my ear on the screwdriver. It seems that the relay on the engine side may be clicking a little louder than the one on the fender side, but wanted to double check with you guys before trying to replace the wrong one!

Thanks again for your help,
Jack

[Tom Greenleaf]

AYOR - as I have just searched with what is available to me (limited data) so would default to removing one and see if it still clicks or not. You may (can't say) that they are the same part # and can be swapped.

You shouldn't need to drive at all for this. for 140 miles round trip of driving, time wasted vs costs use the associative properties of guessing

Relays I just found had to do with fan(s) more than clutch. But if fan(s) don't get forced on clutch may not engage or vs verse. Do wire colors match up from relay suspect to item suspect? Is that 15 amp fuse empowered as tested with voltmeter or test light? Suggest getting an LED test light and should be fine with a 1991 vehicle but know that playing with assorted things can mess up computer controls and you'll think $40 bucks is chump change!

Note on relays: They have (usually) points inside that trigger to send on power or sometimes enable grounds to make an item work. Those points can snap and make contact but not make the electrical connection required. Some will react to just a love tap with the plastic end of a screwdriver and work for a while and if so one at a time it's likely that one.

Parts outlets can cross over parts #s in many cases.

If poking wire or "T" pinning back sides of connections/plugs watch out for what you are doing and seal up the insulation if you poke wires for testing. Liquid electrical tape with brush in cap for a pin hole should do.

If you wish a year's worth of diagrams and software for one car you can get it for I think now $27.50US from AllData.com or others like Mitchels on Demand and don't' know the prices of all.

Again - I default to saying any poking or jumping wires is totally AYOR - the wrong things messed with can cost tons! Beware...........

T

[jacksapple]

Well, good news and bad news.. I was able to talk my Subaru dealer into shipping the relays to my home address. I got them today. The bad news is, I just replaced both relays and it hasn't fixed the problem. Like I said, the air conditioning worked great prior to the car setting for a year. Now the compressor just wants to short cycle. Man, if anyone else has any ideas on what to do for this thing I would sure try it! If I still lived in Missouri, I wouldn't hesitate taking the thing in to a shop to have it fixed... Here in Montana, or at least where I live in Montana, very few shops know much, if anything about air conditioning! We have a short summer where the A/C is needed, a lot of vehicles here don't even have A/C!

[jacksapple]

AYOR - as I have just searched with what is available to me (limited data) so would default to removing one and see if it still clicks or not. You may (can't say) that they are the same part # and can be swapped.

You shouldn't need to drive at all for this. for 140 miles round trip of driving, time wasted vs costs use the associative properties of guessing

Relays I just found had to do with fan(s) more than clutch. But if fan(s) don't get forced on clutch may not engage or vs verse. Do wire colors match up from relay suspect to item suspect? Is that 15 amp fuse empowered as tested with voltmeter or test light? Suggest getting an LED test light and should be fine with a 1991 vehicle but know that playing with assorted things can mess up computer controls and you'll think $40 bucks is chump change!

Note on relays: They have (usually) points inside that trigger to send on power or sometimes enable grounds to make an item work. Those points can snap and make contact but not make the electrical connection required. Some will react to just a love tap with the plastic end of a screwdriver and work for a while and if so one at a time it's likely that one.

Parts outlets can cross over parts #s in many cases.

If poking wire or "T" pinning back sides of connections/plugs watch out for what you are doing and seal up the insulation if you poke wires for testing. Liquid electrical tape with brush in cap for a pin hole should do.

If you wish a year's worth of diagrams and software for one car you can get it for I think now $27.50US from AllData.com or others like Mitchels on Demand and don't' know the prices of all.

Again - I default to saying any poking or jumping wires is totally AYOR - the wrong things messed with can cost tons! Beware...........

T

Tom, all of my fans are running when the a/c is engaged. I took a look at the 15 amp fuse that is on the strut tower and it looked fine, but I replaced it as well with a brand new fuse. I've also looked at all connections and grounds. They appear to be in excellent shape. I can feel the relays kicking in and out when the compressor clutch kicks in and out. This leads me to believe the relays and fuses are fine and working. I also tried tapping on the connections and wiggling the connections. The compressor will not kick back on until the power switch is turned off, then on again. I had one mechanic here tell me the compressor is bad, but it it's bad, why will it cool the whole car down if I turn the a/c switch off and on when the compressor clutch kicks out? I can manually (by turning the switch off and on) keep the compressor running and blowing very cold air. Any other ideas would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Jack

[Tom Greenleaf]

T[/quote]

Tom, all of my fans are running when the a/c is engaged. I took a look at the 15 amp fuse that is on the strut tower and it looked fine, but I replaced it as well with a brand new fuse. I've also looked at all connections and grounds. They appear to be in excellent shape. I can feel the relays kicking in and out when the compressor clutch kicks in and out. This leads me to believe the relays and fuses are fine and working. I also tried tapping on the connections and wiggling the connections. The compressor will not kick back on until the power switch is turned off, then on again. I had one mechanic here tell me the compressor is bad, but if it's bad, why will it cool the whole car down if I turn the a/c switch off and on when the compressor clutch kicks out? I can manually (by turning the switch off and on) keep the compressor running and blowing very cold air. Any other ideas would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Jack[/quote]

Jack, Sorry for delay to respond. I'm going blind reading posts.

OK: This is confusing me now as you are saying this works "manually" and not sure what you mean by that but if turning compressor on and off from control head then perhaps that switch or contacts in control head are an issue IF THIS IS SOMEHOW SHUTTING DOWN.
I can't see this being the compressor itself quite yet if it can cool properly, no unusual noises AND no frost in wrong places frequently evidenced by no condensate dripping while system is cooling then may work again later if so from icing up, melting and so far not noted here.

What is missing is pressures under what conditions a problem happens. Electrical?: Things that look good means little. Even a simple fuse can fail intermittently or completely and appear good so you test for at least continuity OR voltage in and out of one. Relays - same thing and generally sealed up, crimped or plastic sealed but have moving parts inside which is what you hear. Those too can make contact and not make the electrical connection required to operate.
Subaru or anything really connections may have suffered from some long term sitting depending on situation. When replacing a relay or fuse a light smear of even WD-40 or plain dialectic grease can help or prolong good contact. I'm forever using a Q-Tip with stuff on connections, plugs with assorted anti-corrosion things/products and factory ones usually did from new but likely all dried out by now.

So, Please refresh just where this is now. It works as you just said if you fiddle with it from dash I take it. Does that mean it quits or wont kick on without you turning it on an off a couple times? If just that from inside car we are probably barking up the wrong tree for now,

Tom

[jacksapple]

T

Tom, all of my fans are running when the a/c is engaged. I took a look at the 15 amp fuse that is on the strut tower and it looked fine, but I replaced it as well with a brand new fuse. I've also looked at all connections and grounds. They appear to be in excellent shape. I can feel the relays kicking in and out when the compressor clutch kicks in and out. This leads me to believe the relays and fuses are fine and working. I also tried tapping on the connections and wiggling the connections. The compressor will not kick back on until the power switch is turned off, then on again. I had one mechanic here tell me the compressor is bad, but if it's bad, why will it cool the whole car down if I turn the a/c switch off and on when the compressor clutch kicks out? I can manually (by turning the switch off and on) keep the compressor running and blowing very cold air. Any other ideas would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Jack[/quote]

Jack, Sorry for delay to respond. I'm going blind reading posts.

OK: This is confusing me now as you are saying this works "manually" and not sure what you mean by that but if turning compressor on and off from control head then perhaps that switch or contacts in control head are an issue IF THIS IS SOMEHOW SHUTTING DOWN.
I can't see this being the compressor itself quite yet if it can cool properly, no unusual noises AND no frost in wrong places frequently evidenced by no condensate dripping while system is cooling then may work again later if so from icing up, melting and so far not noted here.

What is missing is pressures under what conditions a problem happens. Electrical?: Things that look good means little. Even a simple fuse can fail intermittently or completely and appear good so you test for at least continuity OR voltage in and out of one. Relays - same thing and generally sealed up, crimped or plastic sealed but have moving parts inside which is what you hear. Those too can make contact and not make the electrical connection required to operate.
Subaru or anything really connections may have suffered from some long term sitting depending on situation. When replacing a relay or fuse a light smear of even WD-40 or plain dialectic grease can help or prolong good contact. I'm forever using a Q-Tip with stuff on connections, plugs with assorted anti-corrosion things/products and factory ones usually did from new but likely all dried out by now.

So, Please refresh just where this is now. It works as you just said if you fiddle with it from dash I take it. Does that mean it quits or wont kick on without you turning it on an off a couple times? If just that from inside car we are probably barking up the wrong tree for now,

Tom[/quote]

Tom what I'm doing to keep the compressor running is turning it off, then back on again from the dash. The compressor will run for about 5 seconds, then shut off. If I turn the AC off from the dash, then back on it will run another five seconds then shut off. Each time, I only have to turn it off, then on again from the dash one time to get the compressor to kick back on. This is how I got the AC to blow very cold air, was by cycling the on and off switch each time the compressor would kick off. Both of the relays on the strut tower on the passenger side have been replaced along with the 15 amp fuse. I have a friend that is a ac and refrigeration man that I spoke with about this. He told me to check the high pressure switch and low pressure switch and I've been trying to find the location of these switches with no luck so far. Too bad that this friend lives 1500 miles away from me or I'm sure he could get it fixed in no time. I did notice some corrosion on the plugs for the relays, I poured some baking soda and water mixture in the plugs to try to get rid of it. also I dug around inside the plugs with a dental pick to get as much of it out as I could before plugging the new relays in. I didn't think about using the wd-40 or anti corrosion gel, I will take the plugs back off and apply it to see if that helps. My friend that gave me the advise about the high and low pressure switches works on commercial air conditioners and don't do much with small ones such as the ones on vehicles, so if you think this is not good advise, I will stop trying to locate the switches. Let me know which steps you think I should take next to try to narrow this down. I really appreciate your responses and value your advise.

Jack

[jacksapple]

Tom, I forgot to add that there are no unusual noises or frost. I have not seen any unusual condensation either.

[Tom Greenleaf]

OK - Think I follow this now and what is happening. Should have looked back but guessing this is now 134a retrofitted from the original R-12 which most would be by now just from age and the super high price of R-12 for a while and no clue what it is now.

In converting it there should have been a HPCO (high pressure cut out) switch installed but who knows as it shouldn't have had one originally and would have a pressure blow out valve if high pressures exceeded "X" pressure. It may also have a thermal cut out on compressor - I just can't know every vehicle's set up this far out.

What I think is happening is one of the failsafes to shut down compressor is working and in fact shuts it down. While down, pressure would return to a static pressure with some time which could vary and start again but as you just mentioned just a few seconds worth. That's just too short to get any cooling so that is confusing for now. If it can cool it plain must be staying engaged longer than that.

So now from that observation the pressures are needed to see if the are out of perimeters. Low pressure will shut down if low enough and high as well or know that pressures are indicative of the temp. Too low it would freeze and too high just strains so would shut down.

I think with gauges on it and just revving up engine to about 2,000 RPM you could observe an extreme OR if no extreme than perhaps it's getting bad info from items that enable it to run or not.

Outside chance that the clutch is losing magnetic force to stay engaged from heat but that's inconsistent with how long it runs??

For now the thing to do is to observe what pressures are when it cuts out and go from that,

Tom